Even though I sneakily didn't put any sort of contact address in the last column, letters are still pouring in on the subject of reverence. Everyone seems to want a say. I'm sorry I can't answer all these letters personally, but this topic is turning into a full-time occupation. I appreciate all of you who have written, however, and I'll run as many letters as I can. Maybe the responses will help all of us.

It's amazing to me how often I'll get a whole clump of letters around a central theme. These first few focus on an easy solution that is very hard for a lot of us to do — asking people to be quiet. Now there's a solution!

Bob brings up an excellent point. I was sitting in stake conference yesterday, and had the same experience. A couple behind me had young children who were disruptive for two solid hours, and the parents did not take them out. I find this to be inconsiderate of others who are there to worship. I'm not talking about an occasional squawk — nearly all kids will do that. But when it escalates to screaming and loud crying, kids should be taken out until they calm down.

Since many parents seem to be rather clueless regarding their kids' behavior at church, I think we need to follow the example given in the temple. In the instruction period at the first part of every session, we are told exactly what to do and how to act. I think the ward leadership should give direct instruction to those who can't seem to figure this out on their own. It could be made the topic of Priesthood and R.S. lessons a few times each year, such as on the 5th Sunday.

I keep thinking of the statement by Burke: “All that is necessary for the triumph of evil is for good men to do nothing.” (That's close, anyhow). Good people are often way too afraid of what others will think, so they will not act, even when acting is in the best interest of the larger group. We can be kind and caring and still deliver the message. There is the chance that someone somewhere will be offended. But that risk does not mean that we should never speak up.

Sidebar: What I find even more annoying than noisy children are the cell phones that go off during sacrament meeting. This drives me nuts. We've had cell phones go off during the sacrament, of all things. Who is that important? The only reason in my opinion, for having a cell phone in church at all is if you are on the national organ transplant list, and you have to be at the nearest airport in 20 minutes. And even then, you can put your phone on vibrate. Doctors on call can do the same thing. We've had sisters talk on their phones right during a R.S. lesson. What has happened to people's manners?

I have learned from teaching school for 26 years that I have to be very direct and exacting in explaining what behaviors are appropriate. I think the same principles apply to church in this day and age. Manners and civility are frequently not taught anymore, and we all see the effects. Scary.

Carol Gwynn
Salt Lake City

I got a kick out of your image of people waiting for the all-important organ transplant phone call, Carol. Next time I hear a phone ring in church, that's the assumption I'm going to make!

Seriously, however, I like what you said about being kind and caring, but still delivering the message. I'm one of those wimps who is afraid to say anything, for any reason, so I admire people like you who have the ability to say what needs to be said.

Here's a mother of two small children, who is annoyed that other parents are giving all children a bad reputation because they won't discipline their own. She echoes your sentiments about having the courage to speak up:

I'm a mother of two young children and I personally get so irritated at parents who let their children run around and scream in sacrament. I don't know why parents won't take their children outside. We take our children outside. Once outside, we don't just let them run around either. It's hard because we have a two-year-old and a nine-month-old.

I think parents need to remember we're at church. Your children don't need to be running around yelling in the hallway or in sacrament. I know little ones have a lot of energy, and I wish the church buildings were built with a quiet room like Bob said. It would be a lot easier, as we find ourselves often times asking why we even came. Most of the time we're in the hallway and can't even hear the talks in sacrament.

I think "we" need to stop worrying about offending others and remind people it's sacrament, not a place to come and chitchat. If someone gets offend, then they get offended. Really, there's nothing to be offended about. More people will leave sacrament full of resentment and frustration if the problem isn't fixed. The problem needs to be addressed.

Parents and everyone, we need to remember that when we're at sacrament we need to be respectful. Would you let your children run through the temple yelling, and would you talk loudly at the temple? 

Name Withheld
Austin, Texas

I agree with you, Name, that more people will leave church offended if the problem isn't addressed than there will be if the problem is faced. And thanks for being a parent who makes an effort to be part of the solution.

I sympathize with Bob and the nose during sacrament meeting, and here's a solution:

The problem, as I see it, is that we're too afraid to offend people.  If people take offense, then that's their problem — not mine.  Of course, one has to tell them in a loving way as not to offend.   Harshness never solved anything.  

What really gets me is when parents play with their babies, and then the baby laughs, the parent then quickly covers the child's mouth. That's a perfect example of parents not teaching their child to be reverent.  A note to parents: nobody else thinks your child is as cute as you do.  Please keep them quiet in church by not playing with them; save the playtime for home. 

And please leave your toys and snacks at home where they belong.  I raised four children without ever having to bring anything to church.  When my children were noisy, I promptly took them out, had words with them, and brought them straight back in.  The hallways are not playgrounds, and neither is the chapel. Teach them at home to be reverent at church and in the home. 

Eleanor Smith Maller 
Calgary, Alberta, Canada

Your solution is an easy one, Eleanor, for those of us who have a spine. I, being an invertebrate, can only marvel at the courage of the rest of you.

I am not sending advice, but have difficulty with a family directly behind me where the mother is constantly talking and making side comments to her family during sacrament meeting.  We sit close to the front because I play the organ, and I don't want to have to make a grand entrance.  How does one talk to an adult (who easily takes offense — and therein lies the difficulty) about reverence?

Puzzled

That's a good question, Puzzled. I trust that in the pile of letters I still have in my mailbox, this is going to be answered by several readers in several different ways, so hang in there. Help is on the way!

I have feel the same as you about my ward, Bob. I think the problem is everywhere. A long time ago, when I still lived in Hayward, California, our bishop got up and held a special sacrament program with his councilors on reverence. He addressed all of the issues you stated in your letter. He suggested to the members how they should handle their children and not to disrupt others in the meetings.

I think sometimes people need to be reminded and some need to be given the tools to act on. Some people have never been taught the importance of reverence, and all they need is to be taught. I don't think that anyone should be afraid to speak up and help.

I have two mentally handicapped children, one of whom is a 20-year-old daughter with metal retardation, autism, and epilepsy. My son, who is 15, also has metal retarded but at a very high level. Some times my daughter acts up and I have to take her out or even home. I do not get fed enough spiritually.

The ward I am in now is very loud and that can make her go crazy. I have said things to people, but the bishopric does nothing. I have to say it has become a chore to get up and go to church. I don't get much during the week and It would be nice to enjoy my Sundays. I haven't been to church much lately —reverence being one of the reasons. Hope you can find reverence soon.

Susan Hawkins
Mesa, Arizona

Thanks for writing, Susan. It saddens me that the reverence issue has gotten so out of hand that people are actually staying away from church, and I hope things change for you soon.

I especially liked what you said about some people needing to be given the tools to act upon. I don't think anyone comes into church with the express purpose of disrupting sacrament meeting, but there are some who just don't know how disruptive their actions are. Thanks for the reminder.

Hey Bob!

Every ward with children has a reverence problem from time to time.  I know you said you talked to your bishop, but he us ultimately responsible for what goes on in sacrament meeting.  Our bishop stood up and chastised the ward for their irreverence.  He did it with love and caring and respect for us and for where we were, but he didn't “beat around the bush.”  It was obvious it was noisy and he told parents with screaming children to take them out until they settled down.  Ideas he gave us were to practice with the small children in being reverent at home, and he reminded us as adults to set a good example.  If the bishop is unwilling to address this problem, the next person to ask would be the stake president.  If it's still unresolved, try sitting up on the front row.  I understand your frustration.  The bishop speaking to our congregation really helped.

Rose Holladay
Lehi, Utah

Thanks for your perspective, Rose. I was starting to think the whole reverence problem in the Church was my fault because I haven't said anything. It's nice to be reminded that the buck stops with the bishop. Of course, the bishop might prefer it if the congregation took matters into their own hands — in a civilized manner, of course.

Relative to Bob's problem (it's not just Bob's problem), it was pointed out to us during a “Know Your Religion” lecture that the church building in our neighborhood was the most sacred building in town. With that in mind, the chapel portion of the building would be the most sacred area within it, and sacrament meeting would be the most sacred of the activities to occur there.

As members attend sacrament meeting, the most sacred meeting of the week, in the most sacred location commonly available to them (excluding temples), they are in the most favorable circumstances possible to feel the Spirit and receive relevant revelation they may seek. This cannot happen if the environment is fouled by disruptive and irreverent noise, and (yes, I'll say it) anti-spiritual conduct. I personally would be mortified to think I or my children might be responsible for denying the needed spiritual experience to a soul seeking refreshment at the Lord's footstool.

Mother used to say, “Crying children in church are like good intentions — they should be carried out!” I can only add, “Amen!”

Mari Todd
Ridgecrest, California

That's a great quote, Mari. I only wish talking adults were as portable as crying children!

Read on for a link to a talk from an apostle that stresses one of the big rewards of being reverent — reverence actually invites revelation. If that's not an incentive for us to be reverent, I don't know what is!

I wanted to recommend a talk by Elder Packer on the subject of reverence, found in the November 1991 Ensign.

My favorite line from it:

I'm sure it's frustrating for Bob to be sitting in meetings full of noisy kids.  As a mother of three young kids, the youngest only 16 months, with a husband who sits on the stand, I do my best to keep them from disturbing the meeting.  I am so grateful to the wonderful lady in my ward who sits with my older two kids every week so that I can take the youngest one out.  Her kindness allows me to help our ward's
reverence, and prevents the ward from getting frustrated with my baby. 

So, to all of you who get irritated by the kids, maybe there is a kind, charitable way that you can be part of the solution.  Is there a single mother who can't leave her older kids alone while she takes the younger
one out?  Maybe someone can offer to sit with them. The Spirit can guide you as you ponder kindly how to help. Any possible solution needs to be offered with charity, not judgment, so that it can be received with gratitude and not defensively rejected.

Thanks!

Emily in Utah

What a great letter, Emily! First you recommended a terrific talk (and even gave us the link for it), and then you gave a concrete suggestion as to how we can all be part of the solution. Thanks so much for writing!

Our next letter “branches” out into a new wrinkle on the reverence situation. (How's that for mixing metaphors?)

I guess I'm to late to add my two cents worth on the lack of reverence in our chapel. But hopefully somebody can make a suggestion on what might be done. Our ward has some really wonderful people in it, but unfortunately we have many who were here when this area was a branch. Although that draws many areas together, it also allows for some strange latitude.

We have people in our ward who will not let newcomers, or anyone they haven't known their entire lives to come in and sit down in the pews they consider their own. We have had two of our granddaughters and one little great-grandson run off by a woman who is otherwise a very sweet lady, but she thinks the pew she sits in is hers and no one can sit there but she and her family.

Three weeks ago, one of her two sons sat there with his wife, who never quit talking — through the welcome, through the opening prayer, the blessing on the sacrament and the following talks. When the intermediate hymn was played, they just talked louder so they could hear one another. Of course, the rest of us couldn't hear the sacrament prayer, or the talks, let alone the music that was to accompany the members as they sang.

One of their relatives sits is confined to a wheelchair, and she parks in the aisle next to “their” row, where she blocks the exit, should there be an emergency. This is against the fire code, but they have told anyone who has worked up the nerve to tell them that it's wrong, that they will do as they please and that no one can tell them what to do. After all, they were the original members in the branch when it was so small.

I personally have nearly fallen over this sister several times, and several people, besides our granddaughters have been run off from sitting in their pew.

There's another family in the ward who does the same thing, running people off. We have a lot of new people who now ask some of us who look like we might be old-timers if it's okay to sit here or there, rather then be run off by these families.

The obvious solution to the problem (not including the unruly children and their oblivious parents) is to have the bishop talk to them. But that won't happen; nobody — and I mean nobody — is allowed to offend these pew hogs. Our granddaughters haven't come back to church since the incident with the special pew, and it had been some time since they'd been in the church for much the same reasons.

The racket in our chapel is akin to a fish market. The competition is how loud can you get, rather then how reverent you can be. I am embarrassed to ask anyone to come to church with me, because to be taught the Gospel, you must first be able to hear it.

We've lived all over the United States, and this is the first ward where I would be ashamed to ask people to come and learn about the Gospel. I've given up taking my scriptures to read when things get bad because I cannot keep my mind on the scriptures, due to the racket. And we won't even go into the problem of the unruly children.

How do we help make sacrament a pleasant experience, a spiritual experience, and an enriching experience? There just doesn't seem to be any solution when the priesthood won't step up to the plate and make it plain that the behavior going on in the chapel is not what we should expect from Latter-day Saints.

I am especially worried that the Church is at risk for liability regarding blocking an aisle for safety reasons. It seems like it needs to be looked into. If we had a fire in that building, there is no way to get to the front side doors, nor to the back doors opening into the foyer. You'd first have to climb over the wheelchairs that are in the aisles.

If there are any suggestions out there for the problems in our ward, please share them with us. We are in desperate need of help. I would be ashamed if our Savior were to walk into the chapel and see and hear the things that go on — and we're supposed to be thinking of him, and his sacrifice during the sacrament. Help, help, someone.

Desperately Seeking Reverence

Thanks for writing, Desperately. Your problem with people “owning” the pews is something that is common in other churches. In fact, in some times and places, people have actually purchased pews and had brass nameplates affixed to them to indicate whose pew it is.

As for wheelchairs blocking the aisles, that's a serious problem. You know, it was years before I realized that the short pews in the back of most LDS chapels were there not for small families, but to allow wheelchairs to be parked next to them without blocking the aisles. If your chapel doesn't have them, maybe your bishop can arrange for your ward to get them. If your chapel has them but people don't know what they're for, maybe the bishop can mention it from the pulpit. Even if your bishop is unwilling to rock the boat about the pew squatters, he should be able to enforce the wheelchair rule without causing World War III because he can blame it on the fire code. In this case, the buck doesn't have to stop with him.

I have empathy for Bob when it comes to the reverence issue.  I have four children, and when the youngest (twins) were small, I was constantly concerned that they were bothering others in sacrament meeting if they made any noise at all.  I, too, wish that screaming babies and toddlers would not be permitted to drown out the sacrament prayers on occasion. 

In our last ward, reverence in Primary had grown to be a real problem.  A new Primary president recognized the issue as soon as she took over, and suddenly there was a reverence initiative that transformed the primary meetings.  The kids earned little beads through their reverence, and when the jar on the podium was full, there would be a Primary party.  I think this actually corresponded with a quarterly Primary activity, but the kids were earning it.

Earning a ward party would be completely inappropriate for sacrament meetings, however.  I'm sure Bob's concerns are valid and that the leadership is also bothered by the lack of reverence.  It may be the case that the current leaders have a different area of focus, though.  I'll get back to that.

Remember the story of President Kimball in the airport waiting in line with the woman who had two crying children whom everyone else was attempting to ignore.  He reached out to that woman, held her child, and through his love and tenderness, he transformed the atmosphere in that room. 

Back to the area of focus.  If those parents are at the end of their ropes and the sacrament meeting is the only spiritual uplift they get all week, how could a priesthood leader take them aside to point out their failings in maintaining reverence without risking that the families would be so defeated that they just stopped coming?  In any teaching situation, the pupil must feel that the teacher is genuinely concerned and has love for him or her before he will accept the instruction.  Contrary to other public places where a code of conduct might be enforced, our religious services operate on a different plane. 

If people without children can channel some gentleness, meekness, and love by sitting as close as possible to the family with the loudest children and making themselves available to help calm and settle those small children with patience — while maintaining respect for the parents — I expect that the experience the families with squealing children at church will be vastly improved.  At the same time, the entire congregation will share the benefits. The problem children and their parents will stop being irritants, as they become brothers and sisters — each with a name, a face, a personality, and a need to be loved and nurtured.   

Perhaps the way to find peace and fortification in sacrament meeting is to facilitate it for those who need it just as badly but are overwhelmed with those small children all day, every day. 

I have a love/hate attitude toward the old saying “You can't change the situation; you can only change your reaction to it.”   I know it is true but it puts all the responsibility of change back on my shoulders and sometimes that just doesn't seem fair.  I'm afraid it is the case in Bob's situation, though.  He can't change how other people will act — only how he is going to react to it.  I hope some of my input will give him ideas on how to improve his situation.

An Idaho mom with young children

You have good ideas, Mom. Your solution won't help the situation when the culprits are adults, but it could work wonders in those situations where children are the ones making the noise. I hope lots of us childless people and empty nesters have the courage to follow your suggestion.

I am one of those people in sacrament meeting with unruly children. My kids are three and one and obviously have a hard time sitting quietly for an hour. I often go through sacrament meeting wondering
how irritated the other members around me are at the constant "shushing" and pleading to sit and be quiet.

On the other hand, I feel that it is fate, especially in our church, to have little children in the meeting. Having many young children and babies is not going to make for meeting like in a singles ward or any meeting without young children. These children do not come out of the womb knowing how to be reverent, much less for an hour. They need to be taught, and sacrament meeting is really the only solid hour practice they get.

I do feel, however, that some parents don't remove their children from the chapel when they are too noisy or other wise out-of-hand. I do feel that many parents are so desperate for the opportunity to hear a much needed spiritual message that they often deny others by not removing a yelling child. And often times when I am in the foyer with my one-year-old son (which is often!), these children are walking or running around in the halls. Now how are they going to learn to be reverent?

Children are very logical creatures. It doesn't take long to figure out, "If I scream enough in that boring meeting I get to come out here and run and play." When I take one of my children out of the chapel, he has to sit in my lap. My children are not permitted toys or the opportunity to run around. The prospect of sitting in my lap, folding arms for the three-year-old, without snacks or a quiet book, is much less appealing than the opportunity for their own chair and the above named luxuries.

I am not an expert on parenting and, like I said, my children do get out of hand — but I give them a few seconds or chances, depending on the offense, and I do remove them from the chapel. Once the crying subsides, it usually does soon, we head back into the chapel for another attempt at reverence (or as close as we can get to it). Others in the foyer or hall have to put up with protesting and screaming as my child is forced onto my lap, but I feel good that this has worked with the three-year-old. At the very least, they know that church, especially sacrament meeting, is a time to sit quietly and be respectful to Heavenly Father and others around us.

Clara in Colorado

Thanks for writing, Clara. I always appreciate hearing what people in the trenches have to say about children and reverence.

I do have a couple of comments, though. First, you said that sacrament meeting is the only opportunity children have to practice being reverent. I'm not a parent, so I may be blowing smoke out of my ears, but I think that other readers have said they do “reverence training” at home in hour-long blocks, and get excellent results.

Second, I want to clear up any misconception that you and other parents may have about the people who are sitting around you. We all know that there are people who get annoyed with rowdy children, but not everyone does so. When I look at squirming children in sacrament meeting, I do so with great fondness. When I turn my neck to see which child behind me let out the blood-curdling scream, I only do so to see which child has such excellent lung capacity.

When the adults behind me talk through the sacrament, I do want to strangle them. I am not passing judgment on any of the young children or their parents, though.

For those parents who think that everyone in the congregation is sitting in judgment on them, this is definitely not the case. You have friends out there — even on the days when your children are screaming the loudest!

That's it for this week's letters. I still have a mailbox full of letters on this subject, so be sure to tune in next Monday to hear from your fellow readers.

Until next time — Kathy

“ That you may retain your self-respect, it is better to displease the people by doing what you know is right, than to temporarily please them by doing what you know is wrong.”

William J. H. Boetcker