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Maurine Proctor
Monday, March 24 2014

Ordain, or Else?

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I confess that the logic behind the strategy of the Ordain Women movement escapes me. Last week through Jessica Moody of the Public Affairs Department, the Church issued a letter  to leaders of the group refusing them tickets to the April General Conference Priesthood Session April 5.

It wasn’t a simple refusal but was quite specific about the demand for female priesthood ordination. The letter said, "Declaring such an objective to be non-negotiable, as you have done, actually detracts from the helpful discussions that church leaders have held as they seek to listen to the thoughts, concerns, and hopes of women inside and outside of church leadership. Ordination of women to the priesthood is a matter of doctrine that is contrary to the Lord’s revealed organization for His church."

The Church is acknowledging three important ideas in this paragraph: 1) The women are non-negotiable in their demands. That means they intend to continue their protest and agitation until they get exactly what they want. Would a letter refusing their request from President Monson stop them? Non-negotiable suggests otherwise. 2) This is on a matter of doctrine contrary to the Lord’s revealed organization for the Church. So, the letter states that we are not merely talking about a cultural practice or incorrect tradition, but a matter of core doctrine. 3) And last, that the work of Ordain Women “actually detracts” from discussions Church leaders are already having to acknowledge and understand women’s thoughts and concerns.

Could a letter be any more clear? It was saying “cease and desist.” Stop this. You are hindering the work.

Yet the Salt Lake Tribune reported Ordain Women founder Kate Kelly’s response: "We are disappointed that we weren’t granted tickets," says Kate Kelly, one of the founders of Ordain Women. "But it is a positive step that public affairs is responding to us, indicating that one day maybe the higher authorities will be able to hear our concerns."

What a twist for Kelly to interpret this as a “positive step.” She is suggesting that a dialogue has been opened, when, in fact, all she has done is been refused and quite soundly. She is also taking the ploy that somehow the Public Affairs Department of the Church is neatly separated from the “higher authorities” as if such a letter were issued without their consultation and stamp of approval.

She’s smart enough to know that public affairs departments of any organization do not create their own policies—and this is particularly true in the Church. The Church is not going to allow a statement to become public (as this letter, published on the Church’s own website became) without it being the express reflection of those top leaders in the organization.

She is playing a game with us when she tells the press that dialogue has now been opened and that one day “higher authorities will be able to hear our concerns.” There is no doubt that higher authorities are already well aware of her and her movement—and they are already giving clear indications of where they stand.

What she is really telling us is that her organization doesn’t intend to stop—no matter what, but she is couching it in a way to appear loyal and faithful. She told the press, "We're going to continue to ask and knock as we are told to do in Matthew 7:7. The only thing we're going to demonstrate is that we're ready for the blessings and responsibilities of the priesthood. We’re going to continue to gather, ask and to knock as planned.”

It reminds me of the term “doublespeak” which is “language that deliberately disguises, distorts, or reverses the meaning of words. Double speak may take the form of euphemisms (e.g., “downsizing” for layoffs, “servicing the target” for bombing), in which cases it is primarily meant to take the truth sound more palatable. It may also refer to intentional ambiguity in language or to actual inversions of meaning (for example, naming a state of war ‘peace’). In such cases, doublespeak disguises the nature of the truth.”

I hope Kate Kelly and her cohorts are faithful as they claim, but to fire up a movement when the Church, through the public affairs department, has expressly asked them not to is bewildering and a harmful choice for those who call themselves faithful. Is this the fruit of the faithful? I hope those who are following this plan will reconsider.

What if we all started movements to change points of doctrine we disliked or merely questioned. What if there were one group clamoring for a 5% tithing and another who wanted to allow everyone into the temple—not just those with recommends? What if there were a group who advocated the repeal of chastity and another who thought abortion should be moral because childbirth is inconvenient? We would become a church of fragments and opposing persuasions, each walking in his or her own way instead of a people united with one heart fixed on the Lord’s true doctrine.

Free-Speech Zones

The Church’s letter also said that if Ordain Women does demonstrate again, that the group move its activities off of Temple Square to the adjacent free-speech zones.

Kelly responded, "It's striking they would direct us to the free-speech zones. We feel as faithful, active Mormon women we have nothing in common with people who oppose the church and want to protest against it. The church is its members. We aren't against the church, we are the church."

This paradigm that “we are the church” is also flawed. As a citizen of the United States, I am part of the People that the government must account to. With others in my country, I chose the elected officials and they are accountable to me. “We the people” are the decision makers. We are the nation.

The Church, however, operates on a very different foundation. It is the Lord’s. He chooses his servants, the prophets, and they are accountable to Him. God allows us the enormous privilege and responsibility to participate with Him in His Church and in helping to bring to pass His work which is to bring to pass “the immortality and eternal life of man.”

He invites us to participate in work for the living and the dead in innumerable ways, which is a kindness to us, but, nonetheless, it is His Church, His covenants, His direction, His sacrifice that is at its heart and center. While we sustain leaders with our hands raised and our hearts dedicated, we do not vote on doctrine as so many other churches do. We do not determine truth by consensus.

Ye Take Too Much Upon You

When the Children of Israel were making their way to the Promised Land, Korah and 250 of his cohorts described as “famous in the congregation, men of renown” “rose up before Moses” in a willful mutiny and bid for power, including the priesthood (Numbers 16).


112 Comments

  1. Well said Maurine ! If I was a member of Ordain Women....reading this article would make me seriously re-consider my views. I do wonder what the real motive is for them wanting to hold the priesthood. Surely it can only be a desire for power and authority ?
  2. Disingenuous response at best. Ordain women are asking the prophet to enquire of The Lord regarding the ordination of women. They are respecting his role as Prophet and his right to receive revelation for the whole earth. Asking that he approach The Lord with a question that is dear to their hearts and faith. They are not saying they won't abide by whatever The Lord reveals when he is asked by his prophet, in fact what I have heard is rather the opposite. They just want him to ask. They are applying the principles of our faith exemplified by Joseph Smith, as counselled by the Saviour in the New Testament. They are seeking, knocking, and asking in faith, nothing wavering. Please don't turn this into a 'those awful power hungry maniacs' conversation, it just isn't Christ like.
  3. It is quite possible these women are headed towards apostasy and excommunication. They claim to be faithful members, but as articulated in this article, they have crossed some line, been clearly rebutted by the Lord's leaders, and have been warned.
  4. I appreciate the very thoughtful comments made here. However, I can't help but feel the group, "Ordain Women" are getting too much free publicity on Meridian. You would be surprised how many L.D.S.women outside of Utah are not even aware of this movement. I would not be aware of it if I had not read about it in Meridian. By continuing to shine a spotlight on it, you may be doing more harm than good. The "Ordain Women" group will fade away more quickly if we simply ignore them, just as other apostate women (example:-Sonja Johnson) have.
  5. I think that Ordain Women is justified in stating “we are the church.” Consider this, in 1830 Joseph Smith called it the "Church of Christ," but not being correct, in 1834 the name was changed to "The Church of the Latter Day Saints," still not correct, finally in 1838, and by revelation, it became "The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints." Certainly, Christ is the head of the church, but members may be the feet; "and let not the head say unto the feet it hath no need of the feet; for without the feet how shall the body be able to stand?" (D&C 84:109). Furthermore, if members are not the church then D&C 1:30 would not make any sense: And also those to whom these commandments were given, might have power to lay the foundation of this church, and to bring it forth out of obscurity and out of darkness, the only true and living church upon the face of the whole earth, with which I, the Lord, am well pleased, speaking unto the church collectively and not individually— The majority of the Doctrine and Covenants was revealed in response to petitions by members. Why should it not be so today? Ordain Women are not asking for a vote--they are asking for the prophet to ask God. I pray their efforts will bring us further out of obscurity and out of darkness--regardless of the Lord's answer!
  6. If an individual believes a change is necessary, he or she should be counseling with the Lord, not protesting against our Prophet or the church. Would a prophet really be a prophet if he caved to the demands of a few? If he isn't really a prophet, would these women even want to be part of a church that has a false prophet.
  7. Well done, well done. I have a niece who is very devoted to the Ordain Women group. As I hear her voice her opinion, it is clear that she is focusing upon pieces of the gospel and not the whole message of the gospel. I appreciate how well you have laid out this issue. I continue to pray for my niece and all of those dear sisters who as of yet have not demonstrated understanding of the Lord and his plan.
  8. Great article! I couldn't have expressed it any better! Let's hope the Lord will be more merciful towards these women than He did to those who opposed Moses and rebelled against him.
  9. I too was puzzled by the response that this official letter was somehow seen as a positive step. And troubled at the double-speak. Sadly, this group either doesn't see the path they are on--- or they DO see, and are haughtily marching down it anyway........
  10. Amen. I think that we have forgotten that we are to liken the scriptures to ourselves. If we read them and sutdy them we will see that satan is indeed cunning and will carefully lead us down to hell if we don't know our past and remember our past. Thank you for your wonderful insight.
  11. Again I appreciate a succinct and fair appraisal of events affecting the Church. I have been a member of this Church a long time and know several things for sure: 1. The General Authorities and Prophet care deeply about the members, 2. There is an open ear in Church leadership for valid concerns raised by members, and 3. Anyone who relies upon external publicity to push their cause within the Church is denying the very foundation upon which membership in the Church is based: a willingness to follow the Savior. It's equivalent to a group of Pharisees wanting to claim they were followers of Jesus but there were certain of his teachings they would disown.
  12. Concerned about the abrasive tone of this article and the previous one. "The lady doth protest too much, methinks." Just let it be and love your sisters who are struggling and have struggled for years in the Church with feelings of being treated like second-class citizens. Theirs are genuine heart-felt heartaches and deserve an understanding heart and soft answer.
  13. Any church member who feels that pressure from the ranks can result in a change in doctrine or practice has only to look to our history for encouragement. Two examples -- the abandonment of polygamy and the extension of priesthood to black men -- are evidence that our doctrines (or at least our understanding of them) are subject to evolution, either because of outside pressure (polygamy) or the pleas of the prophet and the members (priesthood). In the latter case we even celebrate the persistence and humble importuning by Pres. Kimball as an example of how the Lord answers prayers. How is this current populist movement any different?
  14. How sad!! These sisters say they are faithful & active but they do not understand a basic part of the Plan. As Daughters we are different from Sons...we are supposed to be!! Different in no way means less! In many ways, our Father & the Church have placed women up & above...I feel valued as LDS woman...I feel sad for those who struggle with their self value
  15. Do these Sisters not understand the Gospel ? Im surprised they are still members.
  16. Interesting trend in our society that everything must bend to individual wants, desires, and definitions. If that were truly the case, then there could be no freedom for anyone, as everyone would be for himself or herself without any respect for anyone else. I converted to this church because of the respect I felt and continue to feel towards women. Women have a powerful identity in the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints, and men do as well. The LDS church may be one of the final places where this continues to be true.
  17. When the priesthood ban was "lifted", I am told that a ward in England elected to send a small delegation to Utah to personally tell the Prophet that he had "got it wrong." I don't know if they managed to get to see him. Totally embarrasing unbelievable and stupefying . . . This rather looks like more of the same . . . .
  18. Thank you, thank you, thank you Sis. Proctor, for your shining example, for telling the truth, for following the prophet, and encouraging all to do likewise. These women do not speak for the faithful women of the church. They are, though they claim otherwise, apostate. I hope, as you suggest, that they will reconsider their actions. May all the truly faithful women stand valiantly in support of the doctrines and the prophet.
  19. Kate Kelly's standing up against the First Presidency of the Church and the Quorum of the Twelve is clear act of rebellion and apostate behavior. She is only left with two options: 1) Either humble herself, admit that she was wrong, make proper apologies, and rejoin the fold; 2) Harden her heart and risk terrible consequences to her spiritual welfare and that of those who follow her.
  20. Thank you for this well written article. It's hard to believe there is a group of women who want to hold the Priesthood. Why in heaven's name would that be when we have blessings of the priesthood through the righteous men who hold it? Personally I would not want the responsibility that goes along with it. The Lord does know what He is doing. Recently I ran across something that my grandmother had sent me (She passed in '84 so has been gone for a long time) Anyway, the pamphlet is entitled, "To Manipulate Woman" and is a very good reminder of what was going on many years ago and what has come to pass due to the efforts of the ERA, NOW and so many groups of women who have blinders on. Indeed we are in the last days and must band together, certainly in unity and send a message loud and clear that God will not be mocked - His truth is the real thing and thank goodness we have a prophet and apostles that will not be moved. I wish these women would come to the meeting in March or listen to the Priesthood session from their own home and not be so bent on their own way. Why not try the Lord's way? Thanks again for the article. Would love to be able to just sit down and talk with you face-to-face. I very much enjoy reading the Meridian.
  21. The great sorting of the tares from the wheat continues in these last days. With all the problems in the world and all the truly important causes in which to become involved, they have 'invented' this one?!? It won't be long before these women will be where Sonya Johnson is--long forgotten. As Elder Bruce R. McConkie observed, 'despite the yapping dogs nipping at the heels of the camels, the caravan moves on."
  22. I have a testimony that Thomas S. Monson is indeed the prophet today and that he leads and guides our church under the direction of the Lord as is his stewardship. Having never been a prophet myself, I can't speak personally as how to this is done, but I would think that President Monson does more listening when he is conversing with the Lord than talking. What I mean is, I don't think President Monson has a checklist of questions regarding the doctrine of the church every time he prays. More likely, he simply asks, "what is Thy will" and waits for the personal revelation that comes. There may be a specific question from time to time, but I believe the prophet doesn't approach the Lord with an attitude of these are things I want to address, rather, what is it that Thou would have be know? While I don't have the same desires that these women have in regards to holding the Priesthood, I think anyone can pray to Heavenly Father themselves and ask for personal revelation. However, I want to be clear that I firmly believe that revelation regarding the entire church can only come through the Lord's prophet. If the Lord desired women to have the Priesthood, I have no doubt that President Monson would hasten that work. It troubles me that these women feel unsatisfied with what they see as our leaders inability to correctly lead the church. If they really felt inspired to ask the prophet to converse with the Lord on a specific matter (which I personally feel is out of lime simply because they are assuming to know that the prophet has not done so) then I feel they should be quick to accept the silence as the Lord's answer being no. If the Lord's answer was yes, we'd hear about it directly from the prophet at the upcoming General Conference. I am troubled that it appears to be a movement where every 6 months, they will once again petition the prophet to re-ask the Lord. We are taught that answers to our prayers come in the Lord's time, not ours and that the answer may be yes, may be no, or may be not right now. It is up to us to trust the Lord and His timing and align our will with His, not try to change His will to meet ours. While these women may feel passionately about their cause, I would express to them my concern over the harmful effects their cause is creating. I personally would not want to be responsible for any one having a negative view of our church or damaging someone's testimony with my lack of faith or criticism of the Lord's anointed. Part of me feels like this whole situation will not be addressed any further in a conference setting because our leaders will be prompted to speak on other matters and part of me hopes that it is thoroughly discussed so much that there is no question left to the Lord's position and the leaders' position (which will be the same as the Lord's). I truly hope that we can be as one. Not all be the same and not allowed to have our own thoughts, feelings, and opinions, but be one in committing to follow the Lord and His will, whether we always understand or know the reason or not.
  23. Australian Woman commented that these women just want the prophet to ask the Lord about this. How do they know he hasn't? I think it is very likely that he has and the Lord has said "No." Will women someday be ordained? Maybe, maybe not. Will women be called to more and more positions of leadership in the church? I think that is very likely.
  24. I find it very disturbing that these women seeking for priesthood ordination are seeking to counsel the Prophet and the Twelve in this matter. We have been told that the very elect will be deceived in the latter days, and this seems to be an example of that. These women are very much on the wrong path, no matter how justified they feel. Yes, we can love them and pray for them, but they seem determined to exercise their agency all the way to apostasy.
  25. “Everyone is willing to serve God, unfortunately most only want to serve in an advisory capacity” – Unknown
  26. If these ladies are asking the prophet to ask the Lord about Priesthood ordination for women, the Lord has already established his law. There is no question about it. Well-written article.
  27. The first mistake these women make is bringing it public. This personally, I would be very afraid of jeoperdizing my salvation.
  28. How can this group be so certain that the Prophet hasn't prayed about this issue? Are they privy to his prayers? Or to the councils held in the temple about important matters. Often our prayers are answered with, "No, or Not Yet" but they seem unwilling to accept any answer but Yes.
  29. I also appreciate the tone of this article and think it gives these sisters more respect than they deserve. Now in my 70's, I have listened to this cry many times over the years and am not impressed; it suggest that those of us who value our maternal assignment are not getting everything we deserve nor are our services really valued. The church has shown great patience in dealing with what to me is clear apostasy. More to the point, as this article points out, this demand sidesteps more useful attention to improving the relationship between sister and our priesthood leaders. I also agree that more publicity only encourages them but no one wants to make them martyrs either.
  30. I am grateful The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints is our Lord's Church. He gives His Priesthood authority to worthy men for His purposes, which includes blessings to faithful women. Our Lord directs His Church, and has clearly instructed His servants regarding authority, doctrine, responsibilities, and blessings...and how His Church will be operated. If there is a need He will instruct and show His will to the prophets who lead the people, who can feel His Spirit with confirmation to follow counsel from Him through His prophets and apostles. My responsibility and blessing is to hearken to the Lord's counsel that comes to me through His servants, and rejoice that God knows what is best for us. He is wiser, more powerful than anyone can imagine and loves us enough to reveal what is necessary to our prophets and apostles, for our benefit and blessing. As I live faithful and true to Him, I will feel His love and recognize His blessings, with assurance that He knows and is still in charge. We need to support and HELP His work progress by using our energies in finding ways to bring searching souls to Christ through referrals to our missionaries.
  31. How do the Ordain Women group know that the prophet has not already asked the Lord this question? Absence of a "press release" does not mean it has not happened. If he had asked and received a response that now is not the time, why would he have to tell everyone? It is OK to ask the question (and it has been asked), now Ordain Women needs to calm down and wait. If the Lord wants it, it will happen; if He doesn't, it won't. That simple.
  32. The 'errand of angels" is given to women - and for good reason. Women have a natural capacity for nurturing others. Men have other capacities, and having the responsibility to bear the priesthood is theirs. As a woman I always remember the story of Rebekah - when she was with twins, asked the Lord in faith, "why am I thus?", and given specific counsel. Every woman has that right to that counsel, and does not need to hold priesthood office for that counsel. I feel blessed by both the priesthood and those righteous priesthood leaders who hold their responsibility sacred, and those women who understand that great blessings are theirs and they needn't feel slighted in the least.
  33. This was answered thousands of years ago by Jacob ib the Book of Mormon. "...seek not to counsel The Lord, but to take counsel from his hand." (Jacob 4:10). A generation ago Ezra Taft Benson said Satan's main thrust was the youth oh the Church. Those youth are now the adults of today and he has not surrendered or changed his objective. Now it would seem he is seeking to destroy homes by stealing the women. Are these dear sisters serious? Do They propose to tell a prophet of God what to include in his prayers? Do they think the Church runs without prayer and revelation? Except for the fact it does not meet their agenda, on what basis do they assume the very prayers they demand have not been offered? Oliver Cowdery thought his assignment included correcting Joseph Smith and that the Church could not get along without him. History seems to repeat itself time and again.
  34. I do not find this article (or the previous one) abrasive in any way. The abrasiveness comes from a group that describes its aims as non-negotiable. Their basic premise is that the way the church is organized is wrong, and because their demand is non-negotiable they would disagree even if letter under discussion had been signed by Pres. Monson personally.They are not simply trying to ask a question. If there were the slightest hint in their stance that they would be willing to listen to the counsel of the prophet I may have some sympathy for them. But in presenting themselves in the way they are they place themselves in a position which could lead to apostasy. It doesn't matter that they are sincere in the feelings they hold. In refusing to listen to counsel they are moving along a dangerous path.
  35. In a democracy lobbying by special interest groups can lead to lawful changes. The church is led by a theocracy. We do not change the Lord's laws, but choose to obey him by following the prophet. In conference we don't vote to say whether or not we agree with the doctrines or wish to change them. We vote to say whether or not we will support the prophet the Lord has placed on earth to lead the church at this time. Changing core doctrines by demonstrations is not the Lord's way
  36. If the prophet were to say that The Lord says no. Would that put a stop to it?
  37. I am using the screen name of "Being Converted" because I am constantly being converted to this true gospel. That's to say that firstly, I have faith in the Lord and in His prophets. He speaks thru them. Having faith in that converts me whenever a decision is made that concerns the Church or its members. I remember very well where I was when the brothers of color were given the priesthood. My heart burst with joy because it showed me just how prayers are answered, how we receive guidance from the Lord and how much He is concerned that all of His children are treated equally. That may not be 'one for one' but it is the principle, the core, of it that makes me rejoice. I share the priesthood with my husband just as he shares with me the nurturing of our children. Being a convert I am also aware of the saying 'the people are not perfect, it's the Church that is' And so true for now. We are not here to judge anyone but to love them. I have felt differences in feelings from other Church members. I am not white, black or brown as the classification goes. But I have come to understand that those hurtful feelings only come from inexperience of dealings with others outside of their own color. I try not to judge but I do try to show them who I am which is a child of God, a daughter of God, a faithful wife and mother to a worthy priesthood holder with whom I share my temporal and eternal life. These women's faith in the One that created them and continually gives them life and His Church and prophets, is being tested. We should try to help them. Don't let Satan creep into your life through any insecurities you might be having. Stomp your feet with faith and tell him to 'get behind' you! I love these sisters who are making me well aware of the tides that come in this world. And I would like to invite them to restore their faith as they become converted to the true gospel again. That's how I am converted.
  38. Kate Kelly: "We're going to continue to ask and knock as we are told to do in Matthew 7:7. The only thing we're going to demonstrate is that we're ready for the blessings and responsibilities of the priesthood. We’re going to continue to gather, ask and to knock as planned.” 2 Nephi 9:42: "And whoso knocketh, to him will he open; and the wise, and the learned, and they that are rich, who are puffed up because of their learning, and their wisdom, and their riches—yea, they are they whom he despiseth; and save they shall cast these things away, and consider themselves fools before God, and come down in the depths of humility, he will not open unto them."
  39. Can we please stop insulting the members of "Ordain Women"? Much of the rhetoric hurled at them is highly reminiscent of the rhetoric directed at people who spoke out in favor of Black Mormons and the priesthood. (and remember how that turned out) Women once had far more active roles in Mormonism than they enjoy today. They could lay on hands, bless, and anoint the sick with oil. Relief Society had far more power and independence, and did far more good. There is evidence right in Doctrine and Covenants that Joseph Smith intended a form of priesthood for women, with Emma as its prototype. The 21st century cannot be repealed or hidden from. Let's have some civility here, please.
  40. So, whether by "my own voice" or the voice of a PR rep it is the same?! I am a temple recommend holder. Even though I am not an ordain women supporter, I am troubled by the hostile responses to these women who appear to me much like the widow in Luke 18 than the disingenuous apostates they are portrayed as. I never covenanted to sustain a publicist. What does the prophet have to say on the matter? Why didn't this letter come from the first presidency?
  41. The Ordain Women group is engaging in faulty reasoning at best. On one hand they say that they support the Prophet and sustain him and show that by requesting that he ask the Lord about their concerns but at the same time they demonstrate that they don’t support the Prophet nor sustain him by asking about a question that the Lord answered before time began. They state that they are faithful members yet they are asking for a fundamental change in doctrine to satisfy their personal, mortal ambitions which means that they are not faithful members – so which are they? Brent Taylor (below) states that “it is possible they are headed toward apostasy,” but it appears that they are already there. Clinton (below) quotes and then mis-applies D&C 84:109 below in calling members “the feet.” No, the members are not the feet, they are the members. Christ’s Church without current members is still Christ’s Church. The members are representatives of that Church on the Earth. The Ordain Women Movement’s actions are little more than the tail trying to wag the dog.
  42. If OW were simply asking President Monson to inquire of the Lord about ordaining Women to the Priesthood, I probably wouldn't worry too much about this group. However, when reading some of the posts of the members of this group, I gather that they truely believe that Women are to be ordained to the priesthood. It is not a matter of it, but a matter of when it will happen and they believe that they can hasten the event. They belive, from what I can tell, that early LDS women were ordained to the Priesthood and that the Prophet promised that this would be the case. I do not believe, based upon what I have read and heard that they would accept a "no" from President Monson. They would, in my opinion, see a "no" as a "not now" and continue to push for ordination. Just my 2 cents worth
  43. This article is well written, and I completely agree with it. That being said however... I personally don't think that there was anything wrong with the ORIGINAL request to ask the prophet to pray about this. HOWEVER: That doesn't mean that they can make this ultimatum. If you think they can, or should, maybe you (especially members) should read D&C Section 28 again. Remember that part that says, "Thou shalt not command him who is at thy head, and at the head of the church"? Additionally, to those of you who are saying that the church's doctrine has changed due to outside circumstances... Polygamy was never intended to be a permanent doctrine. Go read the Book of Jacob again. Heck, read the first two chapters. The reason why it was allowed in the early church is because at the time, it was difficult for a lone woman to support herself, especially if she had children. The plural marriage was to ensure that the widows and the fatherless could be taken care of. When that wasn't required (as the church was in a tight community so it was no longer necessary) it was removed. And as for the priesthood being given to all men, first of all, it originally WAS given to all men, but the practice was stopped for an unknown reason (probably racial division. While the Church was opposed to racial division and slavery, it would be dangerous for a developing church to make such a declaration.) Official Declaration 2 was restoring the ORIGINAL practice (from Joseph Smith's time.) Additionally, it was promised MUCH earlier in the church's history that all men would eventually be able to hold the priesthood, by Brigham Young (who, by the way, was the one who stopped the practice of ordaining black men) who stated that in the future, all black members of the church would have all of the privileges that other members had. In other words, go find me an instance in the history of the church where women were ordained to the priesthood, and it was accepted and considered valid, before making the argument that members' requests can change the church's doctrine.
  44. While we are at this, let's start a discussion about the priesthood men becoming relief society presidents (or members of relief society) and primary presidents and young women presidents (and send their Aaronic priesthood holders to their age specific young women's class). If OW want all things to be equal, sounds like some men in the church should be rallying for their desires to run traditionally female-run organizations in the church. There are many men that could certainly run those organizations as there are many women who could do what the priesthood does. We just have this one problem. It's not how the Lord sees it. It's not how it has ever been. I have never considered the members of the priesthood whether they were worthy, active, inactive, excommunicated, whatever, to be more or better or more elect than I am as a woman and a daughter of God. Redefining who we are as a sex and ignoring what our strengths are, does not make it right... it just makes it confusing. Most Latter Day Saints understand the differences between a man and a woman and what they have to offer the world, the church or their families or future families. They also understand the differences of their contributions to the growth of the church. Men aren't having the babies, neither are they nurturing them as a whole, nor are women solely responsible for the feeding of these families or providing the protection that men are innately equipped to provide. If the church has to discontinue priesthood sessions and only hold meetings that men and women and children can attend, then I'm all for it. The OW members and supporters can attend those priesthood sessions via the Internet as the church presidency and other speakers in the future may choose to speak to an Internet only audience. Maybe that is a sad way to solve this issue but it is a way.
  45. Can you imagine the logistical consequences of giving the Priesthood to women? A woman as the head of the Priests quorum, (talk about confusing and emasculating young men) a woman as a bishop working with male counselors, (now there's a Pandora's box if ever there was one!) a woman heading up an elder's quorum moving day--getting all the female priesthood holders to come and move heavy furniture week after week.. Oh, it's all so stupid and ridiculous I can hardly address this subject. But I must add one more voice of support to the Lord who has more wisdom than we do! (One would think that would go without saying, but apparently not) He seems to know what He's doing.... let's let Him do it without any more hassle than He must already contend with. Kathleen....give it a rest. As I read scriptural history, I'd be mighty slow to counsel the Lord.
  46. The members of this organization might do well to think about their answer to this question: "Do you support, affiliate with, or agree with any group or individual whose teachings or practices are contrary to or oppose those accepted by the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints?"
  47. This article is very well written. Thank you. I really liked what you said about this being the Lord's church and us having the opportunity to participate in it. I had a discussion about this "movement" recently and had the thought that Ordain Women seems to be wanting to bring politics into the church and the Lord, through His leaders won't have that. There is no room for political games in this church.
  48. I'm shocked at the hateful and judgmental comments towards this group I've never heard of. It's very sad.
  49. How often does a prophet need to repeat the doctrine? Does every generation need the current prophet to repeat what has been revealed before? Gordon B. Hinckley, prior President of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, said: “Women do not hold the priesthood because the Lord has put it that way. It is part of His program. Women have a very prominent place in this Church. Men hold the priesthood offices of the Church. But women have a tremendous place in this Church. They have their own organization. It was started in 1842 by the Prophet Joseph Smith, called the Relief Society, because its initial purpose was to administer help to those in need. It has grown to be, I think, the largest women’s organization in the world... They have their own offices, their own presidency, their own board. That reaches down to the smallest unit of the Church everywhere in the world... “The men hold the priesthood, yes. But my wife is my companion. In this Church the man neither walks ahead of his wife nor behind his wife but at her side. They are co-equals in this life in a great enterprise.”
  50. When they're saying that all they want the prophet to do is pray and ask about ordaining women, it brings to mind Martin Harris and his wife, asking the Prophet Joseph to just pray and ask one more time about the 116 page manuscript. I'm grateful President Monson listens to Heavenly Father and says "Thy will be done."
  51. The irony of the OW demands is that these women apparently do not understand the significance, and power, of the endowment, which, I am guessing, many of them have received but not understood. Worse yet, their behavior seems reminiscent of those who rebelled in the pre-existence: protesting, marching in defiance, and demanding change to fit their own agenda(s). It is sad. But the spirit of that kind of rebellion is VERY strong and quite infectious. I have seen it in college, in law school, and in politics. There are much better ways to encourage change and one of them is to repent, pray for Church leaders at all levels, and seek spiritual wisdom from the source of all truth. Patient, humble, prayerful and sincere seeking can lead to eternally meaningful insights. Protesting only leads to frustration and anger, if not worse.
  52. Thank you for the article. I imagine that our Prophet has discussed this problem with the Lord and that the Lord has said "I love all of the women in the Church, and there may be changes when the time is right, and you may tell the sisters when the time is right for them, and if there are changes to be made. Patience is required of all of us all the time. Noah took 120 years to build the ark! (February Ensign). Meanwhile we must carry on loving the Lord and loving each other.
  53. Are the ladies of "Ordain Women" more interested in serving the Lord or in pushing a political agenda? If I just want agendas to be pushed in my face, I'll go back to the Unitarian Church.
  54. The church has outlined a very specific way for members to counsel with church leaders and that is contained in the Church Handbook of Instruction. Because Ordain Women has not tried to counsel with leaders according to this policy, they have not been successful in getting what they want. I agree that the PR letter was a cease and desist request and that Ordain Women is ignoring that request using doublespeak. The church is asking really nicely for respect and at some point, it probably won't continue to be as nice. I hate to see a situation devolve like that because their cause is just. It is my hope that Ordain Women will come to realize that local church leaders can be trusted to represent members concerns to Salt Lake and the general authorities are wiling to listen to those who ask in a spirit of cooperation and love.
  55. I think that men have received extremely unfair and unequal treatment in being denied the gift of being able to bear children. Just think of it---the wonder of carrying that little life around in your body for 9 months and then bringing it forth. How can men stand the injustice? I think we need to tell the Prophet that it is time for men to give birth and ask the Lord to change the pattern.
  56. I think that church leadership over the last couple of decades has been very gentle and kind with these LDS feminists. I see that the tone of this last pronouncement is a bit sharper and direct. If the ordain women group does not stop, the church may consider what they do as an apostate faction, thus authorizing local leaders to hold disciplinary councils for these women. It is not wrong to feel that way or even express those feelings a local church leader, but it is not okay to come out in open rebellion against church leadership and established doctrines. The leading councils have made it very clear that they have heard the concerns and desires of these women, and they have rejected it because it's not the Lord's will. Our Heavenly Father has promised us that if we do his church his way, that all he has will be given unto us. He can do nothing else to improve upon that. Bruce H Porter states in Cain/Porter research at bhporter.com, “”From the beginning, there has always been a conflict between legitimate priesthood authority and the illegitimate leader (or person) who rules or demands the right, and “rites” to rule. This is seen even in the pre-earth life as the Son of Morning sought for our Father in Heaven's "honor, which is my power”. (D&C 29:36), (Moses 4:1.) God has no priesthood, he has power, and when given to mankind, we call this authority "priesthood". ... The conflict is always between the legitimate priesthood authority, one whose right it is to reign and the one who rules or wants to rule. ... Mormon records in 3rd Nephi that the fall of the Nephite nation came because of the "Temptations of Satan," which temptations have been the same from the time of Cain. Mormon lists four key temptations that Satan uses to over throw the individual and the culture (a warning for our time and culture, Mormon and non-Mormon alike). It is interesting that 1st Nephi makes the same list.”” I don't know 15 Now the cause of this iniquity of the people was this—Satan had great power, unto the stirring up of the people to do all manner of iniquity, (1) and to the puffing them up with pride, (2) tempting them to seek for power, and authority, (3) and riches, (4) and the vain things of the world. (3 Nephi 6:15.)
  57. If they only want the Prophet to inquire of the Lord, then why demonstrate and demand tickets to the Priesthood session? The letter published by the church should show what the answer to the inquiry was.
  58. the letter said they were causing harm to progress. now the lord cant reveal anything for women because of their actions. thanks a lot. if something were revealed these women would take the credit. so now God is forced not to reveal anything.
  59. Interesting that people are saying that comments against apostasy are "judgmental and hateful". Pointing out apostasy is our responsibility! We don't need to "decide or judge their motives." They are doing that for us brilliantly. They are publishing them in the newspapers, on the web, on TV and in their protests. There is no secret here and so again, as faithful members we are supposed to be aware of apostacy. Within our own church. The goal - as stated by the protesters themselves - is an effort for women receive the Priesthood. That is the end game. I think it is sad that OW feels the need to advise members of its’ group how to get past a temple interview (a cheat sheet of sorts). They actually (I'm serious here) provide 35 pages of how to/what to say to get through the interview. How to navigate the questions and your bishop or stake president. They should just be honest. OW's teachings are not in harmony with the doctrines of the Church, if they were, why the need for 35 pages of “talking points” to sneak through the temple recommend interview? It was one of the most sad things I've read in a long time. It's published on their FB page and they are openly training their supporters how to "deal with" their Priesthood leaders. Unbelievable. If that isn't apostasy, please tell me what is.
  60. Interesting that people are saying that comments against apostasy are "judgmental and hateful". Pointing out apostasy is our responsibility! We don't need to "decide or judge their motives." They are doing that for us brilliantly. They are publishing them in the newspapers, on the web, on TV and in their protests. There is no secret here and so again, as faithful members we are supposed to be aware of apostacy. Within our own church. The goal - as stated by the protesters themselves - is an effort for women receive the Priesthood. That is the end game. I think it is sad that OW feels the need to advise members of its’ group how to get past a temple interview (a cheat sheet of sorts). They actually (I'm serious here) provide 35 pages of how to/what to say to get through the interview. How to navigate the questions and your bishop or stake president. They should just be honest. OW's teachings are not in harmony with the doctrines of the Church, if they were, why the need for 35 pages of “talking points” to sneak through the temple recommend interview? It was one of the most sad things I've read in a long time. It's published on their FB page and they are openly training their supporters how to "deal with" their Priesthood leaders. Unbelievable. If that isn't apostasy, please tell me what is.
  61. These women who want the priesthood obviously don't know church history or doctrine. The RLDS church is waiting for them with arms wide open. If they were to receive the priesthood now, what makes this church any different from the RLDS church that gave women that in the 80s? This is a church lead by a loving Heavenly Father who leads, guides, and counsels his children through His chosen prophets. This is not a political organization that is concerned with a voters demographic. When I read about these women I see selfishness and pride. I see individuals who care more about themselves and their own agenda above doctrine. It's sad because they do not care about the damage they are doing and the ones that will not accept the gospel because of the negative light they are putting the church in.
  62. Men and women should understand that the priesthood is the authority to act in the name of God, by His authority and it comes with attendant responsibilities to be obedient to all that God demands of the holder. As Joseph Smith was told: 34 Behold, there are many called, but few are chosen. And why are they not chosen? 35 Because their hearts are set so much upon the things of this world, and aspire to the honors of men, that they do not learn this one lesson— 36 That the rights of the priesthood are inseparably connected with the powers of heaven, and that the powers of heaven cannot be controlled nor handled only upon the principles of righteousness. 37 That they may be conferred upon us, it is true; but when we undertake to cover our sins, or to gratify our pride, our vain ambition, or to exercise control or dominion or compulsion upon the souls of the children of men, in any degree of unrighteousness, behold, the heavens withdraw themselves; the Spirit of the Lord is grieved; and when it is withdrawn, Amen to the priesthood or the authority of that man. 38 Behold, ere he is aware, he is left unto himself, to kick against the pricks, to persecute the saints, and to fight against God. 39 We have learned by sad experience that it is the nature and disposition of almost all men, as soon as they get a little authority, as they suppose, they will immediately begin to exercise unrighteous dominion. 40 Hence many are called, but few are chosen. Not even all men who are ordained to the priesthood receive God's approval. It is a right that must be earned by humility, obedience and self-sacrifice. No one, man or woman can demand to be ordained to the power to act in the name of God. A man has to be worthy in order to have power in his priesthood. So a woman would have to be called of God, after proving her worthiness by her obedience and humility, to have priesthood. Demanding it is ludicrous! This great privilege to act in the name of God has to be earned. Women who submit to their husbands and prove worthy of their blessings will, in the time of the Lord, receive the fulfillment of the anointing received in the temple that they will become queens and priestesses to their husbands. Everyone has to earn their own blessings. No one can just demand blessings from God.
  63. This article did in fact need to be published. For those who believe that if no one is writing about this then no one will know are wrong. What if someone did hear about this issue, but only heard about through the side of these women who are demanding to be ordained. Satan works on everyone, though some might not feel it right away. Those could slowly be persuaded to understand and then support this movement. This article, and others like it, show a different perspective, especially when it is a perspective that supports the Church and it's stance.
  64. David N you said exactly what I think also.
  65. The priesthood does not give power to men that is denied to women! God's unlimited love and power is already available to women through faith and prayer. We can heal, bless, and do whatever God needs done! The priesthood gives men the KEYS for SERVICE in God's church! It's God's way of organizing the men to learn to serve and bless the world! What is wrong with these women- don't they have ENOUGH to do that they think they need more service opportunities? Don't they WANT the men to have a chance to serve? Jesus picked 12 MALE apostles, even though he associated and honored many many women in his life time. The role of the priesthood through men is important for the blessing of both men and women. We can trust that God can have different roles for all of us, and it is FOR THE BEST!
  66. "But when it comes to our own prejudices and grievances, we too often justify our anger as righteous and our judgment as reliable and only appropriate. Though we cannot look into another’s heart, we assume that we know a bad motive or even a bad person when we see one. We make exceptions when it comes to our own bitterness because we feel that, in our case, we have all the information we need to hold someone else in contempt." --President Uchtdorf--
  67. This article was great. In all of the comments though I have not seen mention of Martin Harris and what happened to part of the Book of Mormon! The Lord made provisions for losing those 118 pages thousands of years before Joseph Smith was born. This to me was a powerful lesson. Do not council the Lord. But more than that, " don't bring him to anger" If history repeats itself, what would be the consequences of pushing this issue farther? We already are paying the consequences of what Eve did! At no time in history (as someone pointed out) have women held the true priesthood of God. That is not God's plan. With all of the turmoil in the world today please do not take from what the Lord has given to us. If you truly are faithful church members please don't be part of the problem. Let go of this for all of our sakes and help move the work along as the Lord needs us to do, in preparation to his coming again.
  68. Back in 1981 ex-Mormon Sonia Johnson stated to the press in Los Angeles that “the Churches are the last to change and They’re going to have to be dragged kicking and screaming into the new world.” ** The Adversary is learning and is a deadly for.
  69. Their basic premise appears false. In the first part they implied The Lord has stated that women should have the priesthood, He hasn't, The organization has chosen to seek various means to change the mind of the church leaders (not The Lord). This implies that they do not see The Lord as the source of the priesthood which speaks to a lack of understanding as to what the priesthood is. Agency comes into play when The Lord provides us with the means and choice, not when a group, be it Ordain Women or Nicene who decide who gets what. The method of attempting to embarrass the church in order to gain the priesthood speaks volumes of a lack of concern for the welfare of the church and a certain "ends justifies the means" mentality. So like Simon in Acts, they seek to "purchase" the priesthood through the means of publicity. They are just like Simon in their lack of understanding. To quote: "Give me also this power, that on whomsoever I lay hands, he may receive the Holy Ghost. But Peter said unto him, Thy money perish with thee, because thou hast thought that the gift of God may be purchased with money. Thou hast neither part nor lot in this matter: for thy heart is not right in the sight of God. Repent therefore of this thy wickedness, and pray God, if perhaps the thought of thine heart may be forgiven thee. For I perceive that thou art in the gall of bitterness, and in the bond of iniquity. " The claim that they are a democratic movement and it is by a democratic ideal that they represent the sisters and are doing it for the sisters is not accurate. If the basis of their act is a democracy (which they claim), then the very basis of their position is completely undermined by the very salient fact more sisters (90%) than brothers do NOT want the priesthood or opportunity of the priesthood bestowed upon them. Maybe if they changed their claim to "WE REPRESENT THE 10%" but then that doesn't quite work does it?) There is nothing democratic about the group, it is in essence an elitist organization attempting to obtain what God has through essentially temporal means. Much as Peter described in Acts.
  70. Great article. Mostly I am sad that the OW campaign has sucked in women I know and love. And next to "sad" I am grateful that there are those such as Maureen Proctor who can articulate so succinctly what I believe. THANK YOU MAUREEN!
  71. The group, as I understand, want the prophet to pray about the issue at hand. Do they not have faith enough to know that the prophet prayers for inspiration daily???? I am positive that Pres. Monson has inquired of the Lord as to how to handle this group. I"m not saying he prayed to know whether the women should have the priesthood, but in praying about this group....the Lord would surely reveal if he wanted policies/doctrine changed. Satan is in full force and the OW group can't see it. I pray for them.
  72. Didn't we learn anything from Harry Potter? The best leaders are not those who aspire to be leaders but those who have leadership thrust upon them. These women are wanting a more "powerful" leadership role. Based on history, that just never seems to be a good enough reason to make someone a leader.
  73. To Carrie, from another Kerry: You yourself are being judgmental and hateful by saying all who oppose Ordain Women are judgmental and hateful. We can disagree on any subject in a civil manner, which you have not. And besides, the Lord does want us, by the Spirit, to judge always between right and wrong.
  74. I have 4 children ages 16-24. Like all of us, my children have often find a piece of the gospel they didn't like or didn't want to follow ie tithing, fasting, church attendance, etc.... In each case my children would approach my husband and myself to try and get the principle changed or to have us say "You must or No you can't". One day it occurred to me that while my husband and I are the leaders in our home, the Lord didn't require all questions about His doctrine to go through us. So in kindness and sincerity our response on these issues became, "Fasting can be very difficult. It is the Lord's law and he would want you to ask Him about whether you need to fast. Let me know how that works out for you." One day my 13 year son’s BB team was playing on Sunday for the championship game and the coach was pressuring my son to play on the Sabbath. The coach said to my son, "Get your parents to let you play on Sunday!" to which my son said, "It is not my parent's decision, it is mine." My son had taken it to the Lord himself and it was a parent miracle! There are many ways this OW issue could go but perhaps for now the brethren are asking (through he PR dept message) that OW show respect and exercise their "freedom of speech" if needed but to stop petitioning the brethren on a matter they need to inquire of the Lord themselves. No answer from the brethren will satisfy OW unless is it a complete reversal on doctrine. The only peace OW and each of us will find when we are struggling is to get on our knees and ask our Maker what his plan is and why? Elder Ballard said at BYU Education Week in 2013, "When all is said and done, each of us has the privilege of choosing whether or not we will believe that God is our Father, that Jesus is the Christ, and that They have a plan designed to help us return home to Them. This, of course, requires faith, which is why faith is the first principle of the gospel. Our testimonies and our peace of mind and our well-being begin with the willingness to believe that our Father in Heaven does indeed know best."
  75. Man...its like i have heard this story before...when was there a time in church history that a person kept telling the prophet that the answer he had received from the Lord regarding a certain things wasn't good enough and that the prophet had to ask again....and again? Oh ya that is right...Martin Harris and the lost manuscript! How did that work out for Martin? Joseph? That is right...Joseph was chastened and Martin lost his family when they still didn't believe him. I just don't see President Monson making the same mistake. I think he has probably inquired of the Lord, got the answer, accepted the answer, and has moved on.
  76. Jessica Moody is just a church spokeswoman...any statements to the media/public first have to have the First Presidency's stamp of approval, therefore, it's as if they are doing the speaking, through a letter or otherwise. And I haven't seen any hostile, hateful comments here like some are saying. Dave has it right...pointing out apostasy is our responsibility as members of the church. Everyone's been civil/no name calling that I've seen.
  77. Very well written article.....this whole matter is very upsetting to me. It is offensive to me when my Sisters in the Gospel even criticize our leaders or gossip in our wards and Stakes. It stirs up contention and I am not at all comfortable in contentious or critical situations. I am so grateful for my membership in The Church if Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints . I am anxious to raise my hand in support of our Prophet and our Apostles and all of our Called leaders .....it is such a blessing to be able to serve in our individual callings. I pray for my Sisters all over the world that we may support the Prophet and our leaders and honor those that hold the Priesthood. We have much to do as Women in the Church...and in our homes.
  78. I believe I am able to understand and comprehend well all that I read, yet I have not seen what OW hopes and expects from receiving the preisthood titles that we have not already. Please explain to us how our lives and salvation would be greater by having the titles of the preisthood.
  79. I've loved so many of these comments, I don't think they are too harsh at all (see 1 Nephi 16) but sadly some of the weak in spirit sisters and brethren are easy prey for the leaders of these groups and also the feelings that it brings do lead to Apostasy or "the dark side" at times or it hastens the change or stimulates the growth of negative feelings towards the church and it's leaders. All I feel I can add to this is that I refuse to believe that those that engage in these activities are doing "all that {they} can do" for their own salvation much less exaltation. For one there isn't enough time. Time to fulfill a calling, do your home/visiting teaching, FHE, meetings and activities, be a good mother/father, son/daughter, aunt/uncle etc. Attend the temple and even be a temple worker. Lets pretend that they do all that and go the extra mile in all regards and somehow still have time for this sort of Extra curricular activities. If an individual is doing all those things and understands the doctrine and what they do to live the Gospel then they would seek counsel and personal revelation on the matter to set their mind at ease, and if they claim to have received revelation on the matter, it is called personal revelation after all, then they are going way outside their stewardship (if any applies) by trying to counsel the general authorities of the church, so I don't feel it's being judgemental to state that either something else is going on or they simply don't understand the way revelation (both personal and for the entire church) works, I hope they eventually find ways to strengthen their faith and better serve in his church rather than damage themselves and others spiritually.
  80. First of all, this article only deconstructs the situation from the letter offered by the church - which by the way is a PR letter, NOT a revelation - but beside Kate Kelly's response there is no look at the OW website to read their actually mission statement, nor interviewing of the women themselves. I happen to know them and the board of OW are all active members of the church and 70% of the profiles on their website are also active members of the church. Most comments on here, including the article itself makes a lot of uneducated, one sided assumptions - many of which I find quite un-Christian. Secondly, I have family members who walked and shouted right alongside Sonia Johnson in the 80s - it was a VERY painful time for us as a church and family filled with contention and screaming - and even garment burning outside the Ogden temple. This OW walk down to temple square to request entrance to the Priesthood session is nothing like that, I find the equation of OW and the ERA protests offensive and completely off the mark. Third, it is disturbing to me that for many years now I have been hearing over the pulpit the need to rescue those that are lost. If you feel so strongly that these women are off the mark and 'lost' then why are you calling for their exclusion? Their questions and actions make you uncomfortable - it's my understanding that Christ was hung on a cross because what he had to say challenged the religious and political conventions of His time. LET ME BE CLEAR - I am not equating OW with Christ, but I am interested that the human tendency to cover our ears and cry blasphemy is still alive and well 2,000 years later. I find so many of these comments from (I'm assuming) faithful, church going Mormons disturbing. Lastly, how do you all explain the stories and accounts of women blessing each other in sickness and even bringing an ox back from sickness if indeed women did not function with some level of the priesthood... ?? I will not state if I support OW or not, but I do support objective and civil discussion - AND I wholeheartedly support Christian behavior - I thought Mormons were Christian.
  81. I don't have to subscribe to what this organization is trying to impose on the women of the church. They don't speak for me and to give our beloved prophet an ultimatum like that is disrespectful to him. Futhermore, I don't want the responsibility of the priestshood. That is not my role and I trust the Lord in this.
  82. Thank you for your spot-on analysis, Maureen! I’m reminded of the following remarks Harold B. Lee made during the Oct 1970 General Conference when he was serving as first counselor in the First Presidency: “We have some tight places to go before the Lord is through with this church and the world in this dispensation, which is the last dispensation, which shall usher in the coming of the Lord. The gospel was restored to prepare a people ready to receive him. The power of Satan will increase; we see it in evidence on every hand. There will be inroads within the Church. There will be, as President Tanner has said, ‘Hypocrites, those professing, but secretly are full of dead men's bones.’ We will see those who profess membership but secretly are plotting and trying to lead people not to follow the leadership that the Lord has set up to preside in this church. “Now the only safety we have as members of this church is to do exactly what the Lord said to the Church in that day when the Church was organized. We must learn to give heed to the words and commandments that the Lord shall give through his prophet, ‘as he receiveth them, walking in all holiness before me ... as if from mine own mouth, in all patience and faith.’ (D&C 21:4-5.) There will be some things that take patience and faith. You may not like what comes from the authority of the Church. It may contradict your political views. It may contradict your social views. It may interfere with some of your social life. But if you listen to these things, as if from the mouth of the Lord himself, with patience and faith, the promise is that ‘the gates of hell shall not prevail against you; yea, and the Lord God will disperse the powers of darkness from before you, and cause the heavens to shake for your good, and his name's glory.’ (D&C 21:6.)” Our need to hearken to President Lee’s sobering and prophetic warning and counsel grows ever more urgent....
  83. I find it interesting that OW members have prayed about ordination and received "a burning of the bossum" that ordination of Woment is correct. It seems that they believe they can receive personnal revelation contrary to how the church runs. I also found an article on Ms Kelly interesting. She talks about leading a protest against BYU concerning academic freedom when a BYU professor was fired. She laughs about her In-Laws warning her of potential apostacy. She talks (with what appears to be with pride) about not following the Elders who were her leaders (Distric or Zone) because she new better. I think that this is very telling of how she views the Prophet and his responsibilities and how she can mobilize OW to push her agenda.
  84. So what is next...demanding that the men bear the chlldren...because it's inconvenient for the women to do so...?
  85. How do they know the Prophet isn't praying about this, or has been praying about this? I don't think a ward member has the right to quiz the Bishop about all of his spiritual concerns for the ward members, and I don't think the church members have a right to counsel the Prophet this way either.
  86. I flew over from the UK to attend General Conference last Ocotober'13 and knowing of the Ordain Women movement decided before attending the Priesthood Session to go over to the standby line and talk with some of these sisters, to try and better understand their motives and desire. Certainly they talk of equality, but I sensed a serious undertone in their double speak! I attempted to appreciate their position… all was very peculiar as said to me several times "why couldn’t there be all female Bishopric’s or Stake Presidencies!"… I thought "they’re welcome to it… enjoy such weighty callings!” Recent Church statement sums up beautifully Priesthood doctrine! http://www.deseretnews.com/article/865598823/LDS-Church-says-activist-group-detracts-from-dialogue.html Talk about “No other Gods”, I got the distinct impression from conversations I had it wasn’t God’s will in most of their minds, but rather "Power, prominence, and prestige” that was being sought after! The following morning during the Sunday Session, Dallin H Oaks gave this great talk, No Other Gods, apart from some excellent other talks directly for women, his talk reminded me of the conversations I had with some of those women in that stand-by line, where he said some seek Power, prominence, and prestige”! http://www.lds.org/general-conference/2013/10/no-other-gods
  87. Some in these comments think the OW group are being unfairly judged. I do not think so. We are being cautious and wary of them. Thank you Maurine for being so clear. All, on both sides of this issue, should remember this reminder from President Packer: "You...will see many things that will try your courage and test your faith. All of the mocking does not come from outside of the Church. Let me say that again: All of the mocking does not come from outside of the Church. Be careful that you do not fall into the category of mocking." (from 'Lehi's Dream and You' Jan 16, 2007
  88. Imagine what might happen if women were given the priesthood and then called to be counselors in the bishopric. If my husband were in a bishopric, I would feel very uncomfortable if he were to work long hours with female counselors. This could cause a lot of problems in our marriage.
  89. I have pondered why I have not been given patience enough to be a Scout Master...I have been the wife of one and marvel how he dared take these tykes on overnight hikes toughening their bodies as well as minds to the rigors of Klondykes in the dead of winter. Year after year TT these young boys grew into strong young men learning management leadership skills laced with compassion, sportsmanship, endurance, and Gratitude toward our Creator.Our. three Eagle Scouts went on to utilize this training on their missions. Now they exercise this in their homes, careers and church callings. Our 6 girls got equal time with Dad. But not all enjoyed those kinds of play. I for one will eat the fish someone else has caught, cleaned AND cooked. I'm gratefull to be so served and will offer up a prayer of thanks for the Lords bounty and bless the hands that prepared it. This does not diminish my tomboy ishness nor diminish my role as female leader/wife/mother/grandmother/teacher/counselor/advocate/Hospice Harpist/Sister Friendly/Stake Missionary/Ordinance Worker. I don't have the Scouter's Skill or Fisher of Men's Temporment to counsel my Bishop/Stake Brethern/THE TWELVE or THE PROPHET. It would profit me notthing. I have enough teaching gkids about "trash can words", kindness, reverence for sacred things, respecting their parents and the Gospel Plan of Happiness and EXALTATION.. Where would I have the time? I once ran a non profit Missing children's Clearinghouse. Stake Presidents would ask me to address their stake PHD meetings to inform and encourage repentence and more CHRIST-LIKE behaviour. Not received well. Was all alone and felt like Joan of Arc. These were our friends and they were mad at the message and me for delivering it... Would not want. to have the position to render training and tender mercies for the time it would take. Apply "line upon line" precept. See scout master analogy
  90. Did Emma Smith talk to Elizabeth Whitney then gather other women to assemble in front of the Whitney Store and then call the local newspaper to come and listen to them "ask" Joseph Smith to do something about the tobacco use in the School of the Prophets? More amazingly did members who are black picket in front of the temple to "ask" for the priesthood? No, they talked privately to the prophet or sent letters and humbly waited on the Lord.
  91. I'm surprised that you have not published my comments of yesterday - comments that advocated a different look at the situation. Clearly, you are only interested in opinions and views that support yours - this leaves me disheartened as so much of my experience in the church is that one cannot speak or ask questions that make others uncomfortable - as they may be out of the norm. This also reinforces my suspicion that you are more interested in living in an echo chamber that works for you instead of considering others. Unfortunately, we live in a larger world than the Mormon church and the lens of the early 1980s is broken. If we as a people cannot accept that then why are we spending so much time and energy on missionary work? I hope you can reconsider your approach as many people are seriously considering leaving our amazing organization simply because of the lack of room for difference. That's not why Jesus taught us.
  92. Below is what Ezra Taft Benson says about following the Prophet. Read the whole thing as it gets better at the end. I like the second to last paragraph where he tells us how we can know how we stand before the Lord. http://speeches.byu.edu/?act=viewitem&id=88
  93. Hum, it is my understanding that just because we women aren't ORDAINED with the priesthood that we still have the right to exercise the priesthood in some areas but, of course, mostly through the priesthood holders in our lives. These women must think that somehow the priesthood holders have some sort of POWER that they don't have access to. WRONG! I do not mind being reliant on a man for some things in life and the priesthood is one of them. It would be tragic if women weren't reliant on men for anything anymore. I do not believe the doctrine will change because the LORD knows where this would lead, discarded and abused men and further decline of the family. The family is the last societal institution that gives structure and normalcy to this life. Let's protect it anyway we can.
  94. Even if they get what they want., and he asks and publicaly declares the answer. The world press would condem the church, it's leaders and followers. Sisters of ordain you are allowing yourself to be used as a tool to hinder and distract the work.
  95. I heard about this movement in Relief Society a little over a month ago. I was surprised to say the least. I do not know why women would want the responsibilities of the Priesthood, I certainly don't. Or do they want to hold the Priesthood for their own "vain glory"? Scripture warns about wanting to "serve" to satisfy our egos. The feminist movement needs to keep their hands off the Lord's Church. If these women want ordination, they can go to the Episcopal Church that ordains women. Or any other Church that suits their fancy and satisfies their egos.
  96. A comment ...from an LDS woman to Heather, mother of three, a member of OW ...in response to her reasonings for wanting to be ordained to the priesthood on the OW website. Point 1 Lighting candles on Christmas eve at a Methodist church by "alter girls" is quite, NO, extremely different than blessing the bread which represents the body of Christ and blessing the water which represents the blood that he spilled for our sakes. Point 2 As for armpit farts and standing on one's head during Sunday school, if that is that young man's only offense to God and man then we should consider ourselves fortunate to have him bless and/or pass the sacrament. I do not believe for one moment that every priesthood holder who has ever touched, blessed, passed or taken the sacrament is ready to be translated. He obviously has a weakness or two that he deals with.... maybe on a daily basis. However, if he chooses to mock the Lord and bless or pass the sacrament when he is or may not be worthy to do so ( and I don't think armpit farts and standing on one's head qualifies as a worthiness issue. You can chalk that one up as a lack of maturity typical to the age group) then that is between him and perhaps his bishop but more importantly between him and the Lord. I know for a fact that after four decades in this church that all men fall short of being perfect to bless or pass the sacrament. If we want perfection out of the man that will bless and pass the sacrament, we will have to wait for the one perfect man who was born on this planet to come and bless it and pass it to us. Point 3 Since you have no answer for your daughters as to why they can't hold the priesthood like their young Aaronic priesthood bearing young men can do, then by all means you should seek for that answer. Oh yes, you already have. You have decided that the other two points, alter girls in the Methodist church and immature Aaronic priesthood holders, are sufficient to run with since you don't have the obvious answer or the definitive answer as to WHY. As for your last paragraph which I don't think is a point but a reflection of how I think you may be missing the boat on how divine you and your daughters truly are. According to your last sentence and your list of talents in the first paragraph, you have already administered in and lead in many church callings and performed ordinances I'm sure, as to baptism and temple ordinances, for yourself and for others. You have done more as a woman, wife, mother, daughter, aunt, sister etc. than 99.9%(?) of the population of women on this planet. You already have a testimony of your Divinity. I am sure of that. When you greet your Heavenly Mother on the other side and see her glory and get to hear her words as she says "well done my daughter," then I know of a surety that you will realize in that split-second that you DID live up to your divine potential as a daughter of heavenly parents even without holding the office of the priesthood. Heather here's a question for you. Do you want your husband to petition for the calling of Relief Society president, or young women's president or primary president? I'm sure that he would do a great job but he may be lacking in certain qualities that only a woman could bring to those positions or callings. Will he be able to go to the women when they are upset about a wayward child, an unfaithful husband, a death in the family or a moral issue? Oh, right. We have a man that already does that. He's called a bishop. Will he have the time and information and foresight to think of or instinctively know all of the needs that each woman in the ward has that need to be met? Like a meal, a babysitter, a ride etc? Will he be able to drop everything in order to see that her needs are met either by himself or by others? Will he be able to be alone with these sisters on an almost daily basis to take care of their needs as thousands and thousands of Relief Society presidents currently do each day? Heather, you have the priesthood in your home and in your life. You had it as a daughter in your father's home before you had it in your married life. Your husband's priesthood is as much a part of you as it is of him just as your motherhood is as much a part of him as it is of you. His talents and abilities and rights and privileges as a member of the church benefit you and your children as much as your talents and abilities and rights and privileges as a member of the church benefits him. Good luck on your quest to change that which has been ordained for "men only" since the beginning of time. As for me and my house, we are happy to serve in our different capacities until the Lord says it's time for change. Change is a constant thing as we know, but this change, I fear for your sake, will never happen.
  97. Good discussion! Not hateful or judgemental. We're all entitled to our opinions, it's healthy to discuss doctrine, we all learn and see where we stand.
  98. Worthy women hold the exact same priesthood power as worthy men- they just express it in different "ways" through different duties natural to their natures/sexual orientation: Women are nurturers by nature and administer to people through praying, talking, cooking etc...hence the "Relief Society." Men are not always so sure how to help, (my hubby always tells me to give him specific tasks.) The Priesthood is guided by very specific duties which give men a way to reach out and help others. Why the "authority" part? I think that particularly when dealing with members of the opposite sex, it helps to be doing so with authority(authorization) of the spirit- as protection against temptations. This is the natural man reason only, spiritual reasons can be learned by pondering scriptures and in the temple. Lastly, this authority does not make them superior, rather, it describes the fact that the spirit of The Lord is the authorizer and they are acting on behalf of him
  99. It seems pretty clear that the Lord has spoken through his prophet. Case closed. It is time for Ordain Women to disband and accept the Lord's will.
  100. JP, Unwittingly, by referring to Mary Fielding Smith, you have proven the error and fallacy of your position. Completely respecting and understanding Church principles since her conversion, her own personal hardships with the leader of her pioneer company, and the proper position of the priesthood, Widow Smith 100% properly exercised her faith to ask a priesthood bearer to bless her oxen, and she not only did it once, but three times, and these were not her only occasions of respect for and demonstrated extreme trust in priesthood authority. OW could learn a lot from Mary Fielding Smith, but it's the exact opposite of what you have presented.
  101. the letter said they were causing harm to progress. now the lord cant reveal anything for women because of their actions. thanks a lot. if something were revealed these women would take the credit. so now God is forced not to reveal anything.
  102. If all they seek is for Pres. Monson to ask Heavenly Father, then what is the purpose of their agitating for this change? All the agitating won't matter if the answer is still "no" which I believe it will be, since, as you point out it is against revealed doctrine to do otherwise.
  103. Those who try to draw the issues of polygamy and of race/priesthood as parallel to the current "ordain" movement forget the historical context of the others, as well as the motivations involved. There is no clear understanding, except for the words of the Manifesto, as to why polygamy was discontinued. While it is true that the Federal government had forbidden it, there is no conclusive proof that the revelation came as a result of that pressure. In addition, there was no membership group protesting around the Church administration office - demanding discontinuance of the practice. There was, in 1978 far less protesting regarding race and the priesthood than there had been in the preceding decades. Those protests did not come from membership groups who protested to be heard - demanding a change. Trying to put political pressure on "decision makers" or upon "revelation" is not parallel to the historical realities of these other revelations, when compared to the "ordain" advocates. Might the request for ordination be more in tune with sincere inquiry if it came from privately penned letters or other communications to President Monson? The publicity appears to have political, rather than theological, motivations - when judged by the actions of those involved.
  104. Sure seems like these women are fighting for a power that they have no faith in or respect for.... I don't get it.
  105. Ordain Women is a classic example of "steadying the ark". D&C Religion 324-235 Manual says this in relation to "steadying the ark"...."Yet even today there are those who fear the ark is tottering and presume to steady its course. There are those who are sure that women are not being treated fairly in the Church, those who would extend some unauthorized blessing, or those who would change the established doctrines of the Church. These are ark steadiers." (pg 188). It continues with a grave warning from President David O. McKay about the ultimate fate of those who persist in steadying the ark...""Let us look around us and see how quickly men (or women) who attempt unauthoritatively to steady the ark die spiritually. Their souls become embittered, their minds distorted, their judgments faulty, and their spirits depressed. Such is the pitiable condition of men (or women) who, neglecting their own responsibilities, spend their time in finding fault with others." Let us hope and pray that these women recognize the dangerous line they are drawing in the sand before it is too late.
  106. Ordain Women is a classic example of "steadying the ark". D&C Religion 324-235 Manual says this in relation to "steadying the ark"...."Yet even today there are those who fear the ark is tottering and presume to steady its course. There are those who are sure that women are not being treated fairly in the Church, those who would extend some unauthorized blessing, or those who would change the established doctrines of the Church. These are ark steadiers." (pg 188). It continues with a grave warning from President David O. McKay about the ultimate fate of those who persist in steadying the ark...""Let us look around us and see how quickly men (or women) who attempt unauthoritatively to steady the ark die spiritually. Their souls become embittered, their minds distorted, their judgments faulty, and their spirits depressed. Such is the pitiable condition of men (or women) who, neglecting their own responsibilities, spend their time in finding fault with others." Let us hope and pray that these women recognize the dangerous line they are drawing in the sand before it is too late.
  107. To Australian Woman - If you knew more about these women and their tactics, you would not be so gullible. They are not in real life what they pretend to be. I know some of them. Believe me!
  108. I haven't read all of the 107 comments to this article, but it is apparent to me that the those females demanding the Priesthood haven't read James 1:5, nor really asked the Lord. Nor do they truely understand their roles as females in life, which are to be co-partners with Heavenly Father and Helpmeets for those terrestrial priesthood holders. It is sad that so much propaganda is given to them. Satan smiles, but everything has been prophesied. I was also making competiotions with the men until at the age of 23 some valient priesthoods holders taught me the true values of womanhood. The power of woman- and motherhood is unmeasureable!
  109. Be careful what you suggest. There may be some who try for the other things mentioned. (general admission into Temples etc.) I heve already heard (from non-members) that the Temples should not be a private place for members alone. They suggest that "secret" things take place there that should be made public.
  110. What I find truly amusing is how haughty so many of the commenters on here are- who doesn't love a good dose of self-righteousness? None of you are making good arguments, mostly because you don't know what you're talking about, because you haven't read what O.W. is really about. Really, as a church we get all miffed because people don't view Mormons with an objective eye-they pre-judge us, and it's just not fair. Well, don't call the whambulance until you seek first to understand, then be understood. If a part of our congregation is hurting and feeling neglected, who better than the helping hands of Christ to do all we can to lift them up? And by "we," I include myself in this; I am no innocent bystander in feeling marginalized by church practices. And yes, I could just leave, as so many people charitably insist. But why should I? I believe that God will reveal "many important things pertaining to the kingdom of God." So I'm not going to give up on the testimony I have, even when it's hard for me. Most things that are worth being a part of aren't easy, and God has done too much for me for me to just abandon him Consider this the next time you feel tempted to just "ignore" or bad mouth these women. Because they matter too.
  111. I read the harsh, condescending, self-righteous, holier-than-thou and frankly un-Christlike tone of most of these comments, and I think to myself that I don't really want to be associated with a Church that produces people who are so dismissive and snide toward others with a different point of view. Christ reserved his harshest words for the Pharisees - and there seem to be quite a few of those here.
  112. Skeptical: It is hard to read the "tone" of comments when we don't see the faces or hear the inflections of the voice. Most are, at the very least, disappointed and dismayed at people demanding "rights" that only God can give. Is it rights, power, or authority these women want? In any case, "demanding" any three of those is what is un-Christlike in tone and purpose. Most have opinions about this, and that is all right to have an opinion. Satan would have us be afraid to give our opinion (civil or otherwise) to each other, because then we would be cowardly and afraid to stand for what is right. We are to stand for what is right, in love AND truth. No one called these ladies names. No one told them to go to wherever. They just told their feelings and thoughts. The Pharisees that Christ condemned had commercialized the temple, changed the law to fit their agenda, were government appointed leaders who were the "hirelings" Christ spoke of and didn't teach judgement in the Law of Moses. Commenters on this blog are merely expressing opinions which are rightfully theirs.

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